When the policy makers have wider exposure, and the exposures weren’t only just stated to the top ones, but also concerned the bottom whereas the social media are the listening tools, aspiration, voices, ideas, innovations. If it’s getting fluid, social media is possible, those existed boundaries, eventually the government became more sensitive and wiser in making decisions. [Voiceover: This is Endgame] GITA WIRJAWAN: Friends, today we are having Alfatih Timur or Timmy, as the co-founder of Kitabisa.Timmy, thank you for being here with us. ALFATIH TIMUR: Thank you Pak Gita. – I would like to know about your life journal, it’s common questions for the guest. Share a bit you’re born in Padang, In 2021, on December 27th. since then how was it, please share. – Exactly in Bukittinggi, Pak. December 27th. And there’s time we remoted to several places. Primary in Painan, junior high in Agam, Lubuk Basung, senior high in Padang, SMA N 1 Padang. I joined my parents, because he is a civil servant in the health department, so we remoted – So your parent is a doctor?- Doctor. But he studied in Jakarta, and he is a doctor who is being assigned, so when you’re finished, you’ll be sent away to villages. He chose to serve puskesmas (Public health center), regional hospitals, until then he went to regional government. – Then?- Then senior high school in SMA N 1 Padang. Actually I was, it was one of my thoughest moments, because I was in the acceleration which is only two years of study and personally felt quite often got bullied.Because my body was a bit smaller, the youngest, so my friends often considered me as a child. But there’s also the bright side, school fees are only for a while it took only 2 years, and we have the solid friendship at the same school. Living the senior high school also has been a life changing moment, due to having friends who are quite close, then by the time continued to university, I’ve decided to wander to Jakarta back then I chose Economics.- Why UI? – My parents were also guiding me. – Was it the same school? – He studied there too. At first, I would like to be a doctor as well, Pak. However, I’m color blind. That’s why I chose Economics.At that time, actually was quite good, during high school I’ve began to put my interest in economy subject, business. – Really? Were you trading . – Yes I did, I had small trading such phone credits, TOEFL books, and even I had joined MLM, since it was hype in West Sumatera.- You don’t have to mention what the MLM was. – Yes, no need to mentioned the label. But it’s interesting, because of that MLM I was given 2 life-inspiring books, first one, David J. Schwartz, The Magic of Thinking Big and Dale Carnegie, “How To Win Friends And Influence People.” Those were like mandatory books for salesman. In order to gain confidence also to be able to speak easily with others. – Who encourage you to learn English from an early age? – No one in particular Pak. Well, I’ve read the translated book Pak. Indonesian language.- Okay. – Those books were translated. From there, I slowly came to understand how to relate to other people, to communicate, because in high school I didn’t join many organizations. – Then you went to UI, any culture shock, or have you been to Jakarta several times before you studied in Jakarta? – There were few times visited Jakarta, but thats’s just the first wandering experience the longer periods, because it was a family visit You may say, indeed it was a culture shock.I stayed in a flat room at that time, didn’t get the chance to be in a dormitory. Because in a dormitory, you’d be with your Minang friends too, so you would feel still warm. But if you stayed at “Barel” (behind the railways) at UI you have friends from Bogor, Jakarta, I was quite gaudy because I often felt shocked I’ve made friends, from SMA 70, 100, because if you know in Padang the SMA is only 10, 15. So, “Ah, there are hundreds of senior high schools, SMP 115?” I was so gaudy. But thank goodness, it has challenged me to get to know more people from many backgrounds. – Good, so you’re blending in, right. – Blend in. So understand their perspective. Yes it’s very interesting. Anyway the college period is also the moment when I think campus is like a melting pot from various ethnicities, backgrounds, point of views. And since I was in high school at that time, I didn’t have time to participate in many organizations, I took the revenge. Because during school, I could only joined the Rohis (Moslem Community at school) So the others are limited, because they only focused on the lessons.Because we need to catch it up fast, right. During college I joined many committees, organizations, to get to know with many people Even though at that time the performance was actually not very good, I joined too many organizations, which made me not focus. But I get to see people from different background and that exposure at that time has dragged my attention to get a deeper understanding. – Okay, then are there episodes which interesting besides outside class activities? – Perhaps in college is like BEM (Students’ Representative Council). BEM has changed my life too, because in high school maybe I learnt the academic of business, while in BEM I’ve studied ideal, studied idealism. Earlier I saw Madilog’s book, once Tan Malaka said that idealism is the last luxury which belong to the youth. – Rare.- Indeed it’s rare. During college (students), we are allowed to be naive, idealistic, and well just give it a shot. And I’ve enjoyed those times. 3 years I’ve spent in BEM. So the first 2 years in BEM of Economics Faculty, and I joined the divison of Department of Strategic Studies and Action (KASTRAT), so that’s in the Socio – Political Division.It’s like those who think about studies and participate in demonstrations. Then one last year at AKROP (Department of Action and Propaganda). So those 3 years revolved in socio-political world. There I studied and met many seniors who had anxiety, since anxiety is expensive, right, ideal, anxiety, and I also learn there society or the people move not because the leaders have voice But the leaders move because the voices from the people. So it’s our duties to create voices, so the leaders are willing to act and since there was no social media, we acted by going down to the street. And I enjoyed those times. – Was it in 1998, or …?- Oh, I enrolled (UI) in 2007. – I was born in 1991. – It’s far if compare as seniors in 1998, 1974, 1966.- I thought you joined the demonstration when you’re 8 years old. – No. Maybe you’re the Trade Minister at that time. – Wow! Okay. You’re not the ones who did the demonstration in front of my office, were you? – No, I’m not. But you may check. It could be me. I went to the DPR, Monas, the Palace. Honestly, it was a lot of emotion at that time and we made the study, but maybe not too deep, right? But I enjoyed those moments. So that’s an interesting phase when I saw youngsters got restless and acted. As simple as that. It was an interesting stage. And maybe other branches apart from politics, about the social. Because in BEM there are many activities in the field, social activities. And I also admired Muhammad Yunus, the Nobel winner. And he once said at that time that I still remember that an academic or an intellectual shouldn’t only use the eagle’s eyes, by only capturing the reality from above, but he also said from worm’s perspective.So you need to feel by going down. And it’s buzzing in my head. And at that time friends of BEM also had that kind of opinion if we want to raise the poverty, don’t just observe the figures, you need to check Bantar Gebang, and other places. And for BEM it’s like a training package. You need to hit the road. Then I enjoyed the moments too, because I use the alma mater, it’s subsidized. It’s a responsibility too.- Then you got the call which is called social entrepreneurship during study or after graduated – The first time, social enterprise was actually possible from the internet, and it’s after graduation. So after graduating, I joined Prof. Rhenald Kasali, one of your friends. And I was his personal assistant for about 2 years. Did a lot of research, if he wanted to fill seminars or to write books. And at that time there he was really writing a book about social entrepreneurship. So I was doing my research and benchmarking social enterprises abroad, in Indonesia. And there I met inspiring figures in Indonesia, such as Pak Bambang Ismawan of Bina Swadaya, Then Mr. Haji Idin, Mr. Eko, etc. It turns out that there are many local figures who create inspiring social projects. There I studied the models, and there I was inspired. – Then what about the startup process? Are there any pitfalls? Usually startups are sliding to the left, slipping to the right, but was it smooth? – Is this in term of Kitabisa?- Yes.Kitabisa, 2013? – 2013.- You were da graduated year? – I graduated in late of 2011.- Okay, 2 years helped the professor, then continued to run out it immediately created a startup?- Yes. That’s right. Indeed there were many, pitfalls. And actually Kitabisa, the beginning, was like a movement. So we don’t think this as a startupbecause at that time, startup was not familiar. And we worked on this over the weekend with the help of many volunteer friends.And the idea at that time was simple, because we met social enterprise, activists, who have social ideas, but don’t have donations, it was though to get resources. And at the same time, we know there are plenty people helping, But we didn’t know yet the reliable and effective channel. From there, the hypothesis is that we build a platform to connect these generous people, some have ideas, others have the resources. The first two years you could say there was no growth.Almost stagnant. Because we really don’t know how to build a platform and my background isn’t from IT. But I really enjoyed the moments to discuss among friends of communities, activists, knocing the doors by doors. And if we look at it in that early years of Kitabisa, many campaigns, actually college students campaigns. So, some created a learning house, some created library. So it’s just pure friends to friends network. One of virals was in 2013, there is a street children’s school in Depok, which is called the evicted Terminal Mosque, it was increasing, but then it went down again. So it was momentum driven. So if there’s no momentum, there wont be fundraising. In those 2 years there were no growth and you could say it was the first pitfall seeing something that we want to do is stagnant for so long.- What stops you from wanting to give up? Normally, when you’re stagnant for 2 years, it caused tootache, right? Confused, what’s next. – Realistically, I was still working with Prof. Rhenald. It was like you still had safety net. You still got paid. So I was able to do some explorations here and there. But yes there’s a moment tha4t I prefer to resign and focus full time, and it’s quite a hard time. But I just enjoyed it when I met many people and their cool projects, especially social projects. The energy’s flowing. Because our job is to enable the change makers. Kitabisa is not the hero, but the hero is the campaigner as the fundraisers. Until now, if I meet someone who raises funds for any causes, wether worship place, for the poor, etc., the energy is contagious, and we are very grateful to be a facilitator to facilitate them. That energy if I go down to the field it will recharge, hit the field and again I’ll get recharge, just like that.- You are empowering donations from millions of people or institutions, then kept going until hundreds of billions deployed ten of thousands of causes, groups. If I compare it to social entrepreneurship in developed countries for example America, if I look at the figure, it could be almost 2% of GDP, the gifting might be nearly reached 500 billion dollars per year, whatever has been donated for social, or social/political interests. So when we talk about endgame, this Kitabisa is a remarkable upside prospect. If we want to be a modern country, I think the gifting can be 2% dari GDP. 2% of GDP is like more 4tha 20 billion of dolars in Indonesia.How did you notice that figure, that potential, or you are able to think ahead there? – Actually if it’s in Indonesia there’s a study about almsgiving. Almsgiving potential which can reach hundreds of trillions. And in 2018 we were even surveyed by the Charity Aid Foundation as the world’s most generous country. And Kitabisa, perhaps we only think in organic. Because we are very relying to the crowd wisdom, because as a platform, we also open for anyone for the fundraising or for the any case or issue.And we saw the upraising is like that’s the course which is religiously based. And I am optimistic to go forward, because also reflect on the platform of crowdfunding overseas. They can be called as donor retention, people are returning back, is not as big as in Indonesia. Because in Indonesia, our traffic increases on Fridays Even now is 4.30 – And okay, are the repeat donors high? – The most interest thing recently is at 4.30- 6.00 AM. Around Fajr. – Masya Allah. (Amazing)- And it is everyday That’s why that is the part of the energy that makes me excited, I interviewed donors, “Mas, I donate IDR 2000 everyday. Because I want to start my day with kindness.” If he doesn’t start it with alms, It feels something is missing. And its very simple, he uses e-money or anything. Kitasbisa also has the apps. Some might say, “Yes, when I’m in trouble, I’ll open Kitabisa, I become grateful.” Because usually people watch social media get insecure because other people’s lives are better. But if we see people who are less fortunate, we become grateful again. These kind of stories are interesting, and donor retention, we have that real behaviour that people tend to repeatedly giving, now we need to maintain the trust and the transparency. – Eventually is all about accountability of transparency. Okay now I’m curious regarding spending behavior on marketplace, is it in the evening or dawn? Well for gifting or donor behavior it’s around 4.30-6.00 AM.What if people shop online, how’s the study? Is it morning, afternoon, evening or night time? – I’m not sure about the detail. But when I chatted among e-commerce friends they said it’s during break time, lunch time. Then the traffic fall during weekend. So it’s when people shop when they are active on the internet. But I might be wrong. – So, okay, this is a lot of development. If I notice it, you are already disruptive to conventional wisdom which have existed. And speaking conventional wisdom that can be including, unfortunately or fortunately government who disburse funds for social interests, How do you balance between success that can be achieved by digital platform and compare with the existing government system? Because the wider community, we are paying taxes here, in hope that can be spend for health matters, education and other social causes. – First, what can we do is like the sand. If compared with the state budget, etc Even if you combined the non-profit, the potential is huge, far with the strength of the government. Actually if it’s about non-profit, their philosophy mostly want that one day theu don’t need to be there, obsolete and Kitabisa is actually exist to cover the structural holes, it’s like a safety net, right.And one day, perhaps no need the existence of Kitabisa. Why people can’t afford, not able to pay at the hospital, need to have fundraise Kitabisa is like the last hope There’s the discourse too in the US. So a platform as Kitabisa, it’s like symptomatic, which is true, but it’s needed. Many people have difficulties to pay insurance, etc. which eventually do fundraising at Kitabisa. But when discuss about government as if the technology make it possible, as you’re saying previoulsy that the tax input goes to output development or perhaps, cash transfer, I am a big fan of UBI (Universal Basic Income), I want to pick your brain on that aspect.- Be my guest. – Because in my perspective UBI is very simple. So we are collecting the tax, then after we just distribute without any assumption, due to prejudice to people who can’t afford. They can provide it from their own wisdom. They know what they need. Don’t be dictated by the government; gotta be this, gotta be that. I imagined if technology allowed, it would be possible that later the social distributions, the distribution of wealth, it will be very even and very much transparent. Because the output and the inputs are clear, then all people can enjoy them. So, what do you think, regarding UBI? – In my opinion, this UBI or Universal Basic Income, it is being embraced by some huge experts scientists.And behind their thoughts in embracing the UBI concept as matter of fact they are already thinking about robotization. And this robotization is real on their platform, so they are not too concerned with wage payments at a very high level, because in the end the employees will also decrease. That we have to be careful there. And don’t get it just because it’s intrigued by the people who might concerned more for himself. but it’s possible at the expense of the wider community. Because if we look at wage or salary or compensation, it must be correlated with productivity. This we must realize that Indonesia’s productivity, is still 24,000 dollars per person per year. That’s a level is still way lower in my opinion compared to Singapore at 170.000 dollars. We need to be clear on how our effort to increase productivity. We don’t just increase the wage, but not supported by the increase of productivity should be.If it’s gradual, that will be fine. But if it’s from the level A-A multiple with 2,3, or 4, I think its too fast. And I still stick on the scientists who have thought to robotize in a bigger scale And it will dislocate the empowerment of a workforce, which is not small. So maybe they are not too concerned on the payment higher compensation. But I think the motivation is beautiful, noble, but it must be balanced with our interests to increase productivity And we have to realize that productivity is still low right now. – And that needs political will from the government too, right? – Yes certainly.- Because the one who can push scientists to put high tax for the UBI should be from the government. – Exactly. And we need to know initially the ratio wages on the profit it’s 2: 1 globally. Now it’s reduced to 1.5: 1. And we must realize that this profit or portion of the profit being shared by the number of companies that are not more than it used to be, or even smaller. And what do we do, we have to find a balance. In my opinion, it is okay, but the implementation must be really sure that the welfare redistribution is okay, and also the productivity increaase well. But if you want to discuss about welfare redistribution, the Gini ratio get increasing, the gap gets increasing, not just in developing countries as Indonesia, but also developed countries such as the United States and China.- Digital dictatorship.- That’s right. And digital dictatorships are psychologically manipulating humans, so it’s easier to socialize concepts. But we also have to be able to use our logic that this concept is the wisest for the wider community, not just a handful of corporations or individuals. – I agree. So, how is this balanced to productivity institutional building. It’s just an interesting wealth distribution idea because it gives freedom for each of them to determine themselves what they would like to do with hose funds. Moreover, the idea that mothers who are taking care of their children is actually a job too, who may have to be financed. Artists, people who guard the forest, etc., Actually, with basic income, they can still have the salary although they do not have to be in the wheels of the current economy. However, it’s still a long way to go, I’m just an observer too. Read from the internet, “Wow, it’s interesting!” Because on one hand the discussion is about AI (artificial intelligence), about wealth accumulation for a few and quite possible there’s a digital dictatorship, but on the other hand there is an ethical discourse.What’s behind this. And those who are talking about this are not arbitrary despite they might have another agenda. Elon Musk agreed on UBI. – He’s the most concerned. Because he’s probably one of the earliests empowering AI, robotics, and autonomy. – We only notice the commitment to welfare redistribution. – And if I noticed the tax system is the most viable instrument which ensuring a redistribution of welfare. Okay, UBI is one of them. But in my opinion, the tax system is the most ensuring thing the welfare redistribution and this, yesterday I termed it as a reverse Robinhood. So the gap is actually mirroring of the back line of Robindhood. If Robinhood story the poor steal from the rich, then to be divided among the poor.But that the Gini ratio is increasing; the rich getting richer, the poor getting poorer relatively dan disproportionately And I think it’s dangerous. So the only way is how to structure the tax system so that the redistribution of welfare is more optimal. So the bottom of the pyramid can be shared more. And for the ones above, cut them more if we can. And I think, is safer for political and social interest in a long term. But policies in developed countries as well as in the developing countries, it’s been heavily influenced or co-opted even by the oligarchic power so no one is changing the tax system. – There’s a lobbyist guarding that. – So its back to social entrepreneurship. Lobbying acts in developed countries are packaged as social activities. Or social enterprise. And I think it is quite concerning and how’s the scientists and those corporations can lobby with a contribution gimmick for some interests whether it is human rights or in the interests of climate change, or for non-climate change purposes. So, how is that from your point of view as a social entrepreneur? Since I see it as a social entrepreneurhip the point is to do anything wonderful for the humanity.For the world. The easiest ones are education, health, and anything. I’m curious how’s your own point of view? – When I was doing research, actually there are many definitions of social entrepreneurship. If I’m not mistaken Ashoka Foundation has it, British Council has it, starting from the most extreme that the legal entity ownership structure has been regulated in the US is not a problem if there is a B Corp for benefit corporation, be specific, the legal entity. There are also those who lose down, the mission driven or conscious capitalism it has a strong mission. The founders are also social enterprises. That’s why many people say that Airbnb is a social enterprise. It doesn’t have to be Patagonia or Toms Shoes which is purely social that can be called as social enterprise. So the spectrum and quadrants are broad. If it’s personally I might see it somewhat in the middle in context moreover, in Indonesia, there is actually no special legal entity for that social enterprise earlier.So maybe first look at its mission why the organization exists at the first place, and what will the impact generate, and maybe the decisions will be taken later. From there it will be seem like the partiality. – Now what do Kitabisa do mostly and where do they head for? Education, health, or natural disaster, or what? – So in the beginning Kitabisa was because of many student projects many education projects, activism, right. Campus projects. But in 2018, 2019, there is a category that has increased significantly, namely health. Even though at first we didn’t, as if the early time we didn’t allow people raising funds for medical reason. But at that time the user himself was kind of really demand, “I want to raise funds; my child is sick.” And from there we finally open the platform, and it is growing organically since then.Because it turns out that word of mouth, Kitabisa made it possible as hope for people who are struggling to pay for hospital bills. And it’s also quite an emotional moment for us, because several times we went to the hospital, I also just found out that in the hospital, the regular patient, the hospital fees is updated every day. And it’s like the life line of a sick person, which has to be paid. Once I’ve been to the hospital and been greeted very warm, hugged by the patient, because he said, “I saw the donation in Kitabisa, it really could pay for my child’s hospital fees.” Because if we can’t pay, the ventilator will be removed. Those kind of stories made me, “We need to focus on helping our friends in need of medical expenses.” Because it’s life and death situation. From there, growing significantly now medical is the number one, while the second is about the religious type of campaign, third is on humanity or disaster, then education, environment. And there are several categories which hit the hype such as animal, that is quite not so bad. Cat feeder, dog shelters, those are also the trend now. – Okay. Let’s speak on this one by one. Regarding on religion, let’s start with the mosque. Suppose to be there are a million mosques in Indonesia. let’s just say every Friday prayer each mosque only donates IDR 100.000, not so flamboyant right, 100.000 per mosque, that’s reached 100 billion mosques per week. so 400 billions per month. Per year it will be 5T approximately. Won’t it be wonderful if it can be managed by a clear accountable transparency. And I don’t know whether it’s one of the verticals of Kitabisa or this is untouchable? – So this is very interesting, and there is a lot of movement in the society now who is trying to revive these spirits. You also managed to calculate it numerically, and it’s good that the benefit will go to the nearest neighborhood which is assisted by the society nearby. It’s like the prophet era, that mosque can give a favor for the closest community. There are mosques such as in Jogja, etc it has already record the poor, then they collect donations, transparently distributed, the mosque even made up its own health insurance among them, something like that. If I noticed recently, frankly we are facilitating organically. So it means that if someone raises funds for that matter we facilitate it.But you need to be more mindful, because this is something which is community-based and bottom-up, well we don’t want automatically make the technology available for everyone, tell them to use it, etc. There must be some policies and ethics from The Mosque Prosperity Council (DKM), and so on, which we need to maintain. These aspects are the ones that need deeper research. But when Mr. Gita were asked if it was vertical, I could say yes. It just, maybe from the roadmap – So it can be applied to Christianity, Buddha, Hindu, etc. – Indeed, that’s right. I met few people of DKM which is really putting the funds of the mosque has become a safety net for the neighboring mosque. As you mentioned it was wonderful. When the poor hungry, just go the mosque. There are funds for the rice, etc. And there has been a lot of movement in the field. I am also optimistic. Moreover, if I’m not mistaken DMI (Mosque Council) are only 2-3 countries whose mosques are funded by the society. Because if I’m not mistaken the rest are top-down. The government built the mosque. In Indonesia, the public built mosques.The spoirit, the motivation are actually exist, it just how do you manage it properly. – I would like to discuss about some disruptions, or disruptive innovations. Blockchain is the most obvious. I noticed how did blockchain able to be empowered to create; first transparency, of course second, centralized third, accountability or recourse. So when people go to the mosque, he donates, for sure he would like to know, that the fund empowerment is noble to renovate the existing toilet, or purchasing Al Qur’an, or the teaching society there, so they can learn about coding, not just reading the Al Qur’an. But for me I think it’s lovely, we can connect to the heyday of Islam in the 8th to the 13th centuries, the Abbasids. That’s how they can combine between revelation and logic or revelation and science. That’s cool. I’m quite sure too that the wider community in a certain zip code, he will donate through the box or via his mobile, via a pla4tform, considered as yours then suddenly he got the fund report is a cent for this, another cent for that, 3 cents for this, it would be bigger as a snowball, from one zipcodes to another districts. – Totally agree. So yes, a mosque is not only functioning as a worship place but to empower the surrounding society . That’s very interesting, And even more if you’re talking about the alms. About Zakah (almsgiving) it’s actually a tool to convert the beneficiaries to be muzaki (donator). From those who could afford to do the alms to be capable to pay it.In a village / community, there is an accumulation of social funds then you see it one by one from them, the social fund getting higher. Since those who pay the alms are increasing. I guess the concepts are quite fascinating, but yes the challenges are huge, and these need a lot of mutual corporationfrom the Mosque Council and from the community as well. – Regarding education, again I’ve brought up about teachers, or the teachers’ qualities need to be developed significantly. Is there any contribution for the interest of teachers’ quality improvement through your platform? – Unfortunately not much. So regarding education Kitabisa is mostly for the infrastructure, building schools, sending books, etc. – I do think that the hard infrastructures are important, but then the soft ones are very important. And the teachers’ qualities are correlated along the students’ qualities, right. You can be so cool due to the teaching qualities you’ve been through Just imagine if you’re in the region whereas the teaching qualities are not as high as you have been experienced. That can be empowered through your platform, how is it going to be? By swarming over to help the teachers’ qualities in remote areas. Or by recruiting the teachers if there are no qualified ones over there yet. That’s what I believed could have the impact. How about your own opinion? – Yes I agree that. It’s our homework. So sometimes, the world’s dilemma is the crowfunding of those structural matters and substantial, which are less emotional. Meanwhile for the emotional and high urgency, normally symptomatic, not a substance. That’s why number one is medical, meanwhile education is the 4th or 5th. So then it is our job how to wrap the prominence issues to be more comprehensive. – Okay. So far it is more demand-driven?- Yes. -Okay. Is it possible that kind of demand to be made through your platform?- Do you mean create the donors? – No, the vertical demand.Create a new vertical. So you create a new vertical. It’s actually untaped. Hm, let’s try to create, there must be anyone who is willing to help to recruit the best teachers in any village. Well, I’m not sure if it’s too experimental or … – No. As a matter a fact we don’t need to start, there are already some friends who created it in Kitabisa. For example, SMSG (All Students, All Teachers), Ms. Najeela Shihab, she created the teachers activities. Empowerment for teachers. Rubi, Indonesia Mengajar (Indonesia Teach), created in Kitabisa. But yes maybe from your perspective, it might need to be made more strucural isn’t, way systematic. Because nowadays still based on ad hoc. Each has their own project, there’s the project. – There are many sectors which I think haven’t been disrupted yet. Of course, the first is education, religion, then medical or health then I can notice the environment how does Kitabisa able to show a higher sensitivity to the environment how can we slow the climate change, is there any? – There are some such as, Nicholas Saputra raised funds for Leuser Park in Aceh. Nadine (Candrawinata) has made for the ocean. So some campaign-driven project-based are exist. – Okay. Then how Kitabisa in the future? – Actually we’re designing a new movement. It’s called Saling Jaga.So Saling Jaga is a new feature, new product in Kitabisa. To simplify, Kitabisa is about donation, it’s one way. We help people. But in Salin Jaga we not only helping people We can be helped if it’s needed. So, it’s a reciprocal. So when the mutual coorporation was reactive in the past, as if there’s something first then there will be mutual coorporation. It turns out now the mutual coorporation can be preventive, before anything happens, first we collect the money, collect the donation first. This called as mutual aid/mutual help in overseas. But actually in our society, there are a lot, (such as) squeezing, chip in, gathering fund, deposit fund. When I meet motor taxi, they like IDR 5000 put in the basecamp, make a piggy bank, then if one of their family got sick, they got some from it. If by the end of the year there’s much money left they will use it for holiday together. So collectivism is our own asset. Bung Hatta said that in our democracy the foundation of Indonesia society is collectivism. We interpret it as a solution to help the people without having to wait the available donation. That’s why the crowdfunding is one-way, while Saling Jaga goes two-ways. And how about the technical? So in Saling Jaga, people can donate to be a joint balance, in one deposit. And thank’s to God there are 650.000 members have joined, they have IDR 10.000 balance, Our funds altogether now is around 9 billion, our joint balance. So when one member got sick, all the members’ balance deducted equally. Let’s say there are 500.000 people, one got sick who needs 50 million, he claimed, we verified, and the documents are valid from that time 500.000 members got 10 rupiah deducted So the sick man can get the 50 mill And it’s automatic, we create the system. So as if this is a digital cooperation. Or in sharia it’s called ta’awun (helping each others) tabarru (good fund). So this is what we are really excited about, because this is a kind of evolution of crowdfunding.From the beginning we only provided the safety net as a last hope for people, but this before anything happens to take care each other. That’s why it’s called Saling Jaga. And alhamdulillah so far we have good reponses, many people participated, from helping intention, “Because I want to join, IDR 10.000 I can sadaqah (alms).” He add more 20.000-30.000. Then by the time he needs it, he will be helped. And for our people, sadaqah is like avoiding bad luck. So when he gives sadaqah, later on if one day he needs a favour, he will be helped. And we make a transparent mechanism. – Where’s the silver line? In terms of where do you draw a line, where do you stop? If its out of sudden there is a request for crowdfunding if there’s one of the members would like to have fried chicken stalls somewhere, will he get capital. Is it something you continue to do or facilitate? – Yes. Actually the border is following the government regulation sir. So we have our own community guideline, what dos and don’ts, and anything against regulation. Every three months we also report it to the Ministry of Social Affairs. So there are audits too. As a foundation,we are also being audited. – Okay. If tomorrow these 600.000 members, would like to open shops, will you do it?- Okay. So if this is a Saling Jaga context? Sorry I was wrong. For Saling Jaga,it’s only specific to two matters. One, critical illness, people with severe sickness the same as COVID. So people who is positive of COVID can get the favor. – Is that Kitabisa policy of one of the government regulations? – It’s Kitabisa policy. Because in Saling Jaga is like a joint deposit, the deposit that we create specifically to help among members when they are sick or COVID. So when it’s for other purpose, we need to create a new joint balance. And it’s the donor’s consent, he should know it when he joined, what is this for, right.- Okay. So do you rule out the possibility? – Indeed, precisely.- When it’s abut the entrepreneurship interest, as long as it’s clear the profit sharing will be, etc. – Yes, it can. – Okay. Then surely this will connect to financial inclusion, wont it? – Yes, you can. That’s right.- I see. So tell me how. – Actually, the goals of corporation are heading towards there. And now maybe there are few of credit union done that. But now if we want to focus on stuff that made the public become insecure. So first basic thing Such as ailment. healthy, COVID. So first we gain the trust to mutually transparent digitally. The habit has formed, as a matter of fact the other cases can be added, as if the other pools. This is an user generated. I Imagine one day the true society there will be 2; insecurity and the social bond.What is bonding us, and what makes us worry? These two things once there are pool, it will be automatically mutually coorporated. And the people have organize it naturally. Create your own community, the do the gathering on your own, if there’s anything happen. Now it’s possible by having technology. For example if there is a bicycle community, they will chip-in if one of the members got into accident. Staff community or who works in a coffee shop who might have particular risks, so it can be really facilitated. – Okay. Then transparency and accountability are the key, right. My imagination was the risk can be used or empowered to camouflage something which might less wise or less noble, that what you must do or think on how to prevent those possibilities? – That’s very valid question, Pak.Those things make me restless. – Isn’t? That has kept you awake at night. – Yes. The donors’ trust. That is amazing. There are two things, Pak. First maybe the crowdfunding and then Saling Jaga. For crowdfunding, we have been working on the donations for about 7 years. What’s the best way to secure the public funds in a scalable way, so it can grow again but also secured. Now we have 4 layers of verifications. First is the identity verification, every person who raises funds must have a KWC like fintech. Second, verification of the story that he is sick, he should have documents which are we going to be reviewed by the trust and saftey team, our internal team. Then when he want to withdraw the fund, it will be posted in Kitabisa the apps will show us how much the fund is withdrawn, for what matter, there will be accessed, the donors can access it. So we can see how much the fund has been collected, how much the fund has been disbursed, in Kitabisa is transparent. And the fourth, there is the public report. So the public themselves will notice if there’s something suspicious, they can click “report”.Because the people themselves who secure and aware of any certain information. These four things that we need to iterate and act it out. And if there’s something against our community guideline, usually we will hold the campaign, so we can divert the fund or in few cases, we return the fund back to the donors. Because of it we kept on inviting the public to remind them if there’s any other fundraising. That’s for the crowdfunding.Meanwhile for the Saling Jaga, it’s actually like this. What’s interesting about Saling Jaga is if people need hel[, yes, there will be moral hazard potential, yes, just ask for a help. But what’s interesting, we emphasize the community side, it will be published as the beneficiaries. So by the time he gets the fund, he will be published. So the donors will know the members that get the this or that aid. And that’s finally the social control. And if there’s any fraud, that’s fairly broad mutual fund, that’s why social control really matters. But on the other hand when people propose for help still we will do verification. We will validate it, when did he get COVID, when he got sick. So still there’s internal prevention and external check from the community itself. – Okay. Just considered the reporting system is so sophisticated. yet no matter how sophisticated the system really is, it could have been manipulated, even the purpose can be tricked. Wrapped it so it looks professional, etc. How is it to avoid that missuse of the system? Because for me it is essential for the scalability of your platform. Now, okay it’s already thousands of billions. But I saw potential to reach hundreds of trillions. Empowerment of your platform for the interest of immense scale. It would be wonderful if it could really be accounted for institutionally, not just because of Timmy. While Timmy isn’t, yes it might change, and the existing system in Kitabisa is, how can we be able account it for the change? – Speaking about institutional, it means there has to be check and balances outside personal and that is actually the function of the auditor institution as well as the regulator. We have an intense coordination with the Ministry of Social Affairs. For auditing, we also publish our financial reports every year, the foundation can see operational costs, etc. And in terms of technology, this is an interesting challenge. In other countries, some mutual aid / mutual help have used blockchain. – Must. Are you using blockchain yet?- we are not using it yet. – I think it should be considered. Because of that the blockchain’s popularity is increasing because there’s decentralization, transparency, accountability. That is, in my opinion, it is important to think about or to consider. I see that this platform can grow so fast. More over if there are already plenty success journeys, and yes, now there are a lot. and if people would like to do some acts, they make social contributions, therefore in the end people will look for trusted platform. I think the potentials are amazing. And how about your opinion if it’s wider community still considered that government still has limitations in spending the fund budget for social purposes, it gives you a long lifeline. What do you think? That’s first question. Second, where’s the line that demarcate or limit or differentiate between for profit with non-profit? – So if I’m not mistaken, Pak Gita’s point was the first one how if the government need to alocate their the social fund and Kitabisa role … – Yes excuse me, there was a case in spending term since social fund bit hard to be accountable, so the public prefer, “Well it will be better go through private instituions which seems clearer.” When we got the statement, and we are clear, a dime can be used for buying a pencil, a dime for this and that. – for now we are still go hand in hand. Top-down and also bottom-up But I believe that is the bottom-up maturing in organizing itself or private, civil society. Because the collectivism of society itself in sloving problems around them , without waiting for a top-down. If this is getting established, it should become a boost for those top-downs who follow the bottom-up style. While in technology, the dashboard should just be opened everything is transparent. And now Big Data initiatives in the government is heading to that open direction. I’m with you, the policies that exist in society, is actually can be an inspiration for the top-down earlier. – Then what is the difference between non-profit and for profit? Is Kitabisa for profit or non-profit, it’s quite a dilemma, you know. – When the first time I made Kitabisa, it was a movement. In 2013. It wasn’t a legal entity. We were joining shared at Rumah Perubahan at that time. In 2014 we made the foundation. Then in 2015, we made the (PT) corporate. I still remember one of Mr. Rhenald’s guidance, if you want to design a social enterprise, you have to take a long breath. Since it’s marathon, we should think it’s sustainable From there we learn about how to crowdfunding platforms overseas can survive and of them the handling administration fee for about 5%, etc. Which we applied it in Kitabisa too. And we see it as double bottom line. The foundation is due to collect donations at the Ministry of Social Affairs which is also the consent for foundation’s license, and people donates to Yayasan Kitabisa (foundation), but PT Kitabisa has developed the technology.And it is also a cooperative relationship between the foundation and PT. The foundation being audited and also the company, and it’s becoming an ecosystem which often called as social enterprise despite it’s actually broader. – I’m quite democratic as long as the institutions are clear, and can be accounted for. And it doesn’t have to be like this, or it has to be like this. Both are very sustainable as long the institutional spirit and the institutional development are clear and can be accounted for. That’s the point So back to the accountability and measurement and responsibility.That is my opinion, you may prove it later on how to create scalability. That’s I think the scalability has many opportunities, at the expense of possiblities of shortcomings at other domains who should have done the social acts. Back to financial inclusion. Financial inclusion is still apporximately 50% compared to neighboring countries in Southeast Asia which has reached 80% -98%. Which I think this is a very empowered platform to increase financial inclusion from 50% to90% -100%, Because there are still many friends in the village who couldn’t have the access to (bank) account, don’t have access to capital. So it is very important so that they can improve their welfare. What do you think?- Agree.But it seems that Kitabisa’s bandwidth is still focused on social care first. – OK. – Because that’s a very big and also many fintech friends has fought it. I guess we have contributed in that direction indirectly, since discussing of financial literacy in digital transaction context. But if the focus is not there yet, now we are still crowdfunding the same as we protected earlier. – Crowdfunding increases financial inclusion. – Maybe specifically crowdfunding which is lending money or equity. – Yes. So it’s not just access to accounts, can you go to an ATM, or you can go to a branch, no. what matter is that he has the access to the capital That is financial inclusion. What is more essential is the access to capital, not the access to account. A lot of us have account, but no capital. – Because yes indeed crowdfunding are donation-based, lending-based, equity-based. So the last 2 are surely very important for democratization of financial inclusion.But in Kitabisa the focus is donation-based. – And I think it’s quite propserous for all parties. The platform that can empower, or can be empowered as well the wider community can be empowered or they become useful. Okay, I see that for the sake of education, I think we can still do it. Just give it a shot, I would like to go deeper, What can you do for the sake of the future education? Because I might argue that the financial inclusion is social cost.It’s not monetary cost it’s social cost. Because it’s to improve social status which previously a subsistence and had become the same level as the others who has gone higher. That’s social cost and education is a social cost. – I think if it’s regarding to education,the recent is scholarship. Although it’s still ad-hoc, so there are several influencers make the pool of fund in Kitabisa. Back then, perhaps the endowment was meant for the elit who can make something such Fulbright Scholarship. But now in Kitabisa, we allow anyone to to create the pool of fund for scholarship.Once for example, an imfluencer named Adit Insomnia, he collected, he often lack of sleep that’s why insomnia, he collected Rp.130 millions from his Twitter friend, then he said, “Who can’t pay UKT (Single Tuition Fee)?” Then just do crowdsource, fill out the form “I can’t bro” Paid, overwhelmed, cried. This is also called “Grassroots movement” who saw the issues and tried to make a “piggy bank” and chip in together. It maybe closer to the community because they’re not only seeing the UKT, I even met people who can’t afford the UTBK (Computer-Based Written Exam) form which costs only IDR 300. 000. There are several friends who graduated from high schools can’t afford it, someone raised funds to help them to buy the form. So indeed, when talking about crowd wisdom mentality it’s a case by case basis, but it really does connect with the points that exist in the society; ah can’t pay UKT, can’t buy the form it appears ad hoc. so how do we see the social change. From that crow mentality, what’s the important. Because I believe that social matter has the solution from the under beneath. The public know, they have tought what they should have. And sometimes the ones at the top assume that it should be this way. When we made them helpless, they will create their own solutions, amazingly it’s creative. That’s something that can be celebrated in Kitabisa. It just like IDR 50 million collected from TikToker.” Besides entertaining, TikTok can be useful for social cause. plus the Z generation, it’s interesting. K-Popers. In Kitabisa, K-Popers is another huge community for donors. They were celebrating their idol’s birthday for instance each time one of the BTS members having a birthday, they will do fundraising for an orphanage, or for natural disaster. These can be hundreds of millions, thousands of followers, since the community is strong, the bond also strong. Again, this crowd mentality which we can’t detect at the beginning, but since we are open, we let it develop by itself, turned out we are surprised ourselves that they have their creative ideas. – OK. You have an extraordinary social activism. If you’re heading to 2045, in Indonesia, what can we do to shape the social structure properly? By empowering your soical activism. – It’s so tough.- It’s okay we are only chit chat here. – 2045 is the 100 years anniversary of Indonesia independence. – Yes. next 24 years. You will be 54. 54 is still young. – I’m interested with the possibilities of our collectivism asset. So our sense of mutual corporation can be manifest into something concrete and especially in economically extraordinary. Maybe the dreams of Bung Hatta, that Corporation shall kept on going, and having technology we should be able, regardless all the disruptions.Yet to be precise, I don’t have much imagination. But in general I think it’s our own asset, and there are not many countries have that social asset, collective and communalism. As long the platform is right, there should be something interesting. Perhaps you may said it’s social fiction where the cover-coat can be whether new style corporation or UBI. I imagine maybe 2045, AI or … – Oh you had. – Yes, Pak. Singularities etc. are trending. – That next 5-10 years are real. – It has to be on the agenda together. – Yes it should be. I think this is real as a part of our next social sturcture. It must be anticipated and need to be studied as early as possible. If it’s social cohesion we are very strong. I believe it. And we are reffering to the histroy of the last 2000 years by scracthing the new culture from outside, we are still solid, even the victims are very few compared to what I’ve seen in Europe and elsewhere. In Europe alone, within 40 years of World War I and II, had killed 120 millions. And not for us. We are much better than that.This is what I think, our amazing social DNA or our rich social genome, but how to form this DNA of our social structure to be more educated, healthier, more prosperous, anything. It’s quite unfortunate if it’s not being used. I want to try to explore more on your social activism. So far you have been so active in social term. How do you think we can educate in order to help in the future so we can be more prosper, healthier, more solid, etc. How to do? – Since 2045 I’m still imagining, the digital generation will be leading. And they’re used to with the high digital exposure, they’ve got more refference, so when they make policy, it will be more content. I’m very optimistic on that. So when the policy makers have broader exposure, and that exposure were not only talking about upwards, but also downwards, whereas social media become tools for listening to the aspirations, voices, ideas, innovations.When this getting cooler, social media made it possible, the existing limitations, finally government has beocme more sensitive and wiser in making decision. And if there’s bit of something, the social control is strong. So I’m imagining later in the checks and balances are getting stronger, so the process will boost the progress, Since the dynamic is healthy. In the past, we discussed about oligarchy, the checks and balances are difficult. But now with social media, as simple by using hastag, leaders can be confused. That’s why I am optimistic on how the government can create the policy which is pro since the social control is powerful. – Yes. Do you see this democracy will change? The way we democratizze ourselves. – I have slightly different idea, which democracy is actually one of it is that DPR as the reflection of people voices in ‘demos’ and ‘kratos’. So we are assuming that DPR members able to crystalize what’s the society think. If this is an assumption, isn’t it?- Yes. This is has been cut.Detached. – Some do really listen, but there are detached, as you have mentioned. But how to listen to people’s voice which is the real people’s aspiration, this is kinda bit worrying. Again the answer can go back to the technology. Because sometimes nowadays technologies understand us more, rather than ourselves. So I can imagine the decision making mechanism or the hype term as public hearing, or going down to the people that one day it can be digitalizes, can be crystalized, so the data point can be seen. – But then do you want democracy or autocracy As for me, lately I’ve been thinking more there has been a false binary that we should embrace this or that, it can be the combination of the two. When we reffer to China, which is autocracy, not democracy. But what’s lovely, in China’s reformation program since Deng Xiaoping in 1978-1979. He succeeded in democratizing talent compared to the previous Mao Zedong’s era. The talent selection system was based on patronage or client-patron relationship which is before Deng Xiaoping. But ever since Deng Xiaoping, it was really the one who fullfil the chosen requirements. That’s why I think it’s democratic. In fact the ironic part is the other side, in terms of democracy, But in some places, countries, there has been a de-democratization of talent whereas the selection or choose the talent was more based on patronage not based on meritocracy.That’s my own opinion, don’t let us drag into binary situation, for me it’s fake. We should be more encouraging the development of institution. And this institution development is in the social structure, I think it will be richer if it’s really happening the talent of democratization. – And starting from a political party too, right? – Anywhere. I’m not keen talking about politic now. But I would like to expand in a social structure. Social structure should put forward-thiking totally that in the end we really want to do the democracy, it will reflect in the passion and the speed and our scale that we capable to democratize talent. Merit must be acknowledged, not be patronaged In some places, the selection of the people are based on, please be excuse, non-merit. That’s my own thought, if it’s not gnawing, not just for democracy, but our social structure. So we will be more appreciative to those concepts. Well, as for me I think this is not a good future for the millenials and the Z generation. Let me go back to your social activism. Is it necesary to be tought of think and to be voiced? – I might not think as far as you Pak Gita. I guess you have to think more when you talk with a stateman. – No, but it’s related with Kitabisa. For me, I see the prospect ahead is amazing. And you are able to take note or record a thick trail of success live in scalability. This scalability can be affiliated everywhere. But I guess this affiliation is capable to form social structure. And the social structure will be shaped by whatever you do in any vertical; health, education, anything. It’s extraordinary. – If you can pick one topic to be the focus and the clarity, what do you think is necessary?- Education. I observe that totality is a must. And in our education, we have to reflect on the quality of the teachers. And OK, if some students who need school fund, it must be helped. But if they have been helped and go to school, while the teachers still mediocre, these students won’t be able to compete among their peers or other students in other cities or overseas. It’s pitty, and this empirically reflected in our productivity which is only at the level of 24.000 per person per year on a PPP (Power Purchasing Parity) adjusted basis compared to I always use Singapore, Because they are really able to do institutional development in an amazing scale and speed. So the wind is so strong and they just sail easily. – Maybe because it’s said that the bureaucrats in their government are plenty of engineers, aren’t they? – But yes the patronage isn’t too thick in selection. Ya it’s possible there are no patronage, they are selecting the smart guys, perhaps their engineers are smarter than the social observants. But for me this is awesome. Okay, let’s back to Kitabisa, 5 years from today, where do you see Kitabisa? – Well this is our collective dream as a team, together we are imagining the mutual corporatiom which is reciprocal will be the main keywords. So Kitabisa can facilitate the people not just for helping others, helping other people, but also can be helped. So when they’re free, give a and. During difficult times, you are helped. So this platform is not only for donation but also solidarity. Because solidarity is 2 ways around. – Yes. Saling jaga. – Saling jaga. We imagine this actually our first stone in regards of collectivism. Since in mutual corporation when there’s something urgent, such a sick person, got COVID, isn’t amazing? There are some who put food by the fences, there are suddenly some people send them. It’s collectivism. If it’s wrapped in technology, so it is a new safety net for the people. And speaking about unity is strong too. Because when you talk Saling Jaga, it is for someone who is sick, all the members’ balance got deducted, this is based on humanity. Whoever you are, your balance will be deducted to help others. And we saw many stories that people got moved because they saw he was helped nation-wide. That’s what I believe can be our dream, crowdfunding as a donation platform, God permit to maintain, we protect the trust and also kept the community’s trust But hopefully the Saling Jaga can be a solution for the community too especially to those who need to be protected. – Has it been internationalized within 5 years? – In fact we, Kitabisa, has open in Malaysia since 2 years ago, it’s called Kitafund. We are partnering with the local.And the market segment is a bit similar, so there are good deeds in Indonesia that we can apply in Malaysia. – Will the platform be in South East Asia in the next 5 years from today? or even to Asia or globally? – Yes, if God’s willing, it’s possible. That’s what matter, It’s exciting for us to explore. But for now most likely I will be just focus in Indonesia. – For the next 5 years?- Even in the upcoming 5 years. We prefer to be in the market that we have known. Because when it’s really solid it will be easier to replicated. Rather in many things but not 100% knowing the market. I guess Indonesia and Malaysia are quite similar, but for Thailand, Vietnam, they are very distinguish – Or Myanmar, there are plenty need help over there. – I’m with you. I’m so eager. Speaking about desire, I want it so bad, but still we need to be focus too. – 10 years? – Hopefully. Maybe by that time Kitabisa has change the name, to be Myanmar something. Hopefully, Pak. – Let me ask you last question, what’s your endgame? – Personally or Kitabisa?- Personally and Kitabisa. – For Kitabisa, it will still around facilitating people collectivism. how to make the digital mutual corporation and become problem solver for many things. And now I’m dedicating my time and energy since it’s for Kitabisa, now, I think I’m following that mission there’s a lot of temptation for this and that, but I do believe we can’t just connect the dots and look forward should be this and that, but yet still look backward. We never know, it turned out God has opened the door which is unpredictable.So now, as for me I will focus with Kitabisa, I embodied with the mission, and let’s see how it goes, and where does it go Many people said that startups are like driving, it’s foggy, but need to be fast, but you don’t really know where it will be going. what matters is keep driving and keep experimenting and keep surviving. Hopefully we still can maintain to do our missions. – Okay. Thank you. – Thank you so much, Pak Gita. – Friends that was Timmy from Kitabisa. Thank you. [ Voiceover: This is Endgame].